Tuesday, December 8, 2009

When do the citizens stand up

...and say "Enough!"?

Carbon Dioxide as a pollutant? For real?

Try to heat your home, cook a meal, or go to work without producing it. Try calling your Congress-critter a spineless, Statist weasel without producing it.

Try breathing without producing it.

Now tell me you are OK with the EPA regulating it.

Pax,

Newbius

17 comments:

Mike W. said...

I was going to say that breathing line, but you stole it before I could say it. D:

theotherjimmyolson said...

After having studied this issue for forty years, I would say yes,It's time

OrangeNeckInNY said...

So, theotherjimmyolson, would you do us the favor then and just stop breathing? Because every breath you take spews out CO2.

If you removed CO2 from the air, now you'd be starving the plant life. What gas do you suppose plants use during photosynthesis to produce O2?

And if you studied this for 40 years, then you pretty much wasted away your entire life. Perhaps you should just stop breathing. Either that, or put a big plastic bag over your head and breathe in that so that all the CO2 you expel is contained.

Anonymous said...

They willnever stand up and say enough. Evidently we will put up with anything. We have become sheep.

theotherjimmyolson said...

For me the object of posting is to learn as much as I can.The man asked a question, I answered the best I could.As to photosynthesis, I farmed with horses for many years in an effort to minimize my use of fossil fuels.I spent the first half of my life in the suburbs of Boston,Massachusetts. I could have made much more money commuting in town, but chose not to lock myself into commuting alone for two hours on the southeast expressway so as to not waste fuel and add to co2.I built my own home from timbers and lumber I milled from my own property, in order to save as much fuel as possible. Due to the fact that my carefully insulated house has only 1/4 the heat load of a comparably sized house,I save even more fossil fuel, Of course I heat my entire house with wood I cut and fit on my own property, so no fossil fuel there either.All of those things were done at considerable sacrifice in time and labor. I feel these sacrifices where worth it. What have you done to put your money where your mouth is? Do you feel that your remarks have added to my knowledge?

Newbius said...

@theotherjimmyolson:

Since you have studied this issue for 40 years, you are doubtless aware that the big fear used to be the coming ice age, as we were in a cooling trend at the time. Additionally, CO2 is not just from fossil fuels, and your burning wood produces a nice amount of it, and likely some CO as well. Fireplaces are notoriously inefficient as heating devices (but fun, I'll grant you).

For actually practicing what you preach about reducing your impact on the world, I will give you credit. However, please do not presume to place yourself above me by advocating that the government use their coercive powers to alter my lifestyle. The government doesn't have that authority, as it is not theirs to wield, recent extra-Constitutional actions to the contrary.

OrangeNeckInNY said...

@theotherjimmyolson,
"All of those things were done at considerable sacrifice in time and labor."

Everything you did wasn't sacrifice; it was self-serving smugness.

"As to photosynthesis, I farmed with horses for many years in an effort to minimize my use of fossil fuels."

What does farming with horses have anything to do with photosynthesis?

"I could have made much more money commuting in town, but chose not to lock myself into commuting alone for two hours on the southeast expressway so as to not waste fuel and add to co2."

So, how did you earn a living? Surely you can't have spend all that time on your property without a means to support it and yourself.

"I built my own home from timbers and lumber I milled from my own property, in order to save as much fuel as possible."

Where do you suppose the power to run your machinery came from? By doing everything yourself, instead of purchasing lumber that was already milled, at a mill that is designed to be as efficient as possible, you just contributed to the CO2 emissions by: 1) running equipment unnecessarily and drawing energy from the power grid; 2) working yourself harder, so you breathed heavier, thus adding more CO2 to the atmosphere.

"Due to the fact that my carefully insulated house has only 1/4 the heat load of a comparably sized house,I save even more fossil fuel,"

Unless you've got 12" thick wood framed walls filled with foil-faced R-38 insulation, triple-pane low-E windows, insulated fiberglass doors and a heated floor system (most of these things that didn't exist 40 years ago), then I call b.s.

What's more, what's heating your water? What cools your house in the summer?

"Of course I heat my entire house with wood I cut and fit on my own property, so no fossil fuel there either."

Wood burns and creates CO & CO2. What devices did you use to cut up your trees? Surely you must have used a chainsaw, thus burning fossil fuels. Not only that, but cutting down trees on your property for firewood and to build your home reduced the amount of vegetation that would have eaten up the CO and CO2 emissions you and your equipment gave off.

"I feel these sacrifices where worth it."

What sacrifices? Seems to me you worked harder; not smarter. Working harder burns more energy.

"What have you done to put your money where your mouth is?"

Let's see, I hunt, therefore, I remove animals that create CO2 from the environment. The monies I pay for my hunting license goes to fund conservation of woodlands. My reduced intake of farm-raised beef has reduced methane and the energy required to butcher and package the beef.

"Do you feel that your remarks have added to my knowledge?"

Can't add knowledge to someone who's already closeminded to how everyone else lives.

theotherjimmyolson said...

Orange, you make quite a few assumptions, on zero actual knowledge "self serving smugness" how can you possibly know my motives? Are you suggesting that after a lifetime of inquiry, I am unaware of the mechanics of photosynthesis.My reference to horse farming was to clue you in to the fact that I was personally involved in the process of photosynthesis, while at the same time doing so in a manner that hopefully minimized what today is called my "carbon foot print".How did I earn my living? In the engineering department of Boston Whaler boat company, located a few minutes by bicycle from my home.Not only do I know where the power to run my machinery comes from, I try my best to work out beforehand what if any savings will accrue from my doing these things myself. It is possible that in constructing this formidable rebuttal to my simple statements of fact you may have overlooked the transportation component in materials gathering. I drew no energy from the"Power grid" sawing lumber As to my house, I have all of what you mention or it's equivalent except my home made double glazed windows and more besides.You can call B.S. all you want, but what serious person will listen to you? The heat load calculations were done by an outside engineer to avoid my own bias from entering into it. He came up with a heat load of 27,500 btu/hr.which works out to just under one and a half cords of wood per year to heat my house.The idea that a person who actually cares about his carbon footprint would heat with a fire place is laughable(Newbius).What,s heating my water? Are you ready for this? I preheat my water with, wait for it.. a home made solar collector. Cooling in summer? What kind of asshole who cared about his energy use would cool his house? You really have to start thinking out of the box if you are going to contribute."wood burns etc." Wow,thank for opening my eyes on that one.My chainsaw gets me 500 btu of wood for each btu it burns. Not only that cutting blah blah... Its obvious you don't spent much time in the woods observing what up.When you fell an individual tree in the woods that hole in the forest canopy doesn't remain there for yaers until another mature tree takes it's place. The leaves and needles of other trees fill the resulting hole in just a few years.Finally, you hunt, you hunt? Please, you don't have to hunt to reduce your intake of beef, just reduce your intake of beef, like the rest of us. What is your evidence that I am close minded to how everyone else lives, whatever that means. AH, Newby, what can I say. I am aware that a segment of the sci comm. was advancing a cooling theory. I am also aware that the consensus at the time was ,no we are not in a long term cooling trend. The popular press is not interested in good science,they are interested in selling papers,so you hear the controversy, but not the boring science part.Fireplace?, see above. In addition. I cut my firewood three years ahead and dry it in a greenhouse. As I'm sure you know, wood at approx.8% moisture burns much more efficiently than wood at the more usual 30% and up. I don' in any way feel myself superior to you, I don't know you, and I'm no big fan of coercive gov. I just want us all, you and me to get it right. Would I be here on your website exposing my self to such abuse as "put a plastic bag over your head" if I didn't want a reasonable dialogue.I also think the federal government has taken far too much power to itself, for the good of the rest of us,I just concentrate on different manifestations of that power.I don't question your passion or your motives.Lets work together where ever we can.

theotherjimmyolson said...

As an aside, in 1969 I had a vasectomy,which of course means I didn't have children after that, or grandchildren for that matter. Each of them, to use your fecetious analogy is not breathing out co2.If you think it hasn't been a sacrifice never to know the joys of having a daughter or grandchildren then I don't believe you are serious and not to put too fine a point on it Mr.OrangeNeck inNY, fuck you.

OrangeNeckInNY said...

@theotherjimmyolson,

You're right, I don't know you, but I do know your kind and your brand of smugness. I live in New York; I'm surrounded by smug, self-righteous people like you.

You live the way you do and expect everyone to follow suit. You do/have this, that or the other thing. Most people don't have that luxury.

You say you're not leaving a bigger carbon footprint, but how can you be absolutely sure? And what is a "carbon footprint" anyway? Anything organic living creature is comprised of carbon as one of the elements, so essentially, when you die, you're still leaving a carbon footprint.

"You can call B.S. all you want, but what serious person will listen to you?"

Sounds like I hit a nerve there. Trying to cast doubts in the minds of other people so they think I'm the one full of b.s. and not you. A typical ploy of someone who is full of b.s.

"My reference to horse farming was to clue you in to the fact that I was personally involved in the process of photosynthesis, while at the same time doing so in a manner that hopefully minimized what today is called my "carbon foot print"."

Yet I still can't figure out what horse farming has to do with the internal energy conversion processes of plants.

"What kind of asshole who cared about his energy use would cool his house? "

Smug right there. We're all assholes now because we don't want to walk around our homes dripping in sweat. All cool home with less humidity in the air also does other things - it keeps things fresher longer.

"Finally, you hunt, you hunt? Please, you don't have to hunt to reduce your intake of beef, just reduce your intake of beef, like the rest of us."

More smug right there. Just because you reduced your intake of beef, doesn't mean it'll happen for the rest of us. Just because you don't like something doesn't give you the right to dictate to the rest of us what we can or cannot like.

"I don't question your passion or your motives."

You already did.

"I also think the federal government has taken far too much power to itself, for the good of the rest of us..."
Finally, I agree with you on something.

theotherjimmyolson said...

I assumed you had the critical thinking skills to figure out that the comment about motives wasn't directed at you. My bad, sorry."I know your kind", Step back and listen to your self. The phrase"your kind" is a flag to everyone in the universe screaming BIGOT!Stereotype! "People like you", speaks for itself. There is no smug in anything I wrote. If for any reason you have feelings of inferiority they have nothing whatsoever to do with me. You own them. I live the way I do as a result of years of busting my ass laboring and always living on one third of my income no matter how meager. NO one gave me the freedom to live the way I choose, I earned it. Whatever I have, I worked for. Anyone who wants to work for it can have everything I have. Now let me say that just because I have come to the conclusion, based solely on the answers you yourself provided to me, that your powers of critical thinking are flawed in major ways is not the same thing as looking down on you. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. there is absolutely nothing in what I have said that tells you or anyone else how to live. You made that up in your own mind. Am I dictating to you? I wasn't the one telling you to put a plastic bag over your head.I could not help noticing that you did not address most of what I said in my last post. We both know why that is,don't we? On the basis of what I have told you, I would say I am the model of the conservative self-made man. The guy you might say is the salt of the earth, The real American. Except you probably don't actually believe that at all. My hunch is that your perfect man is some Rambo Hollywood fiction that doesn't actually exist.If I were a bigot, I could say"You live in New York, well that explains everything",But I won't because I live in the real world,the world where if I make a mistake, nobody is going to bail out my ass.Now see if you can curb your irrational anger, envy, and potty mouth long enough to think about why you are doing what you are doing. Just trying to help.

theotherjimmyolson said...

And your reading skills suck big time "what kind of asshole, WHO CARES ABOUT HIS ENERGY USE,would cool his house" Can you see ,now that I have pointed it out to you, how the phrase "who cares about his energy use" would eliminate anyone like yourself who prefers to waste as much energy as he has dollars to pay for it.If I may spell it out for you,this means I was only referring to people who care about their energy use, not you. Once again the smug was only in your own mind. You do realize, don't you, that every one in the world can read this, and draw there own conclusions about you. I could continue rebutting your points one by one,but I must go fill the woodbox.

theotherjimmyolson said...

Yo,Newbius, Is this guy from New York kicking my ass, or what? Peace.

OrangeNeckInNY said...

"I assumed you had the critical thinking skills to figure out that the comment about motives wasn't directed at you."

Smugness AND condescension. Nice. They usually do go hand-in-hand.

"My bad, sorry."I know your kind", Step back and listen to your self. The phrase"your kind" is a flag to everyone in the universe screaming BIGOT!Stereotype! "People like you", speaks for itself."

So, I'm a bigot now classifying you as smug? Wow, that's a reach.

"If for any reason you have feelings of inferiority they have nothing whatsoever to do with me."

See, there you go ASSUMING that I feel inferior to you (or that you're trying to imply that I am inferior to you) because I don't prescribe to your lifestyle. It has everything to do with you because you just accused me of making assumptions, when you're a blatantly practicing it yourself.

"I live the way I do as a result of years of busting my ass laboring and always living on one third of my income no matter how meager."

Here, you're implying that nobody else busts their asses to live the way they want to live.

"Anyone who wants to work for it can have everything I have."

Projection. You assume everyone wants to have everything you have.

"Now let me say that just because I have come to the conclusion, based solely on the answers you yourself provided to me, that your powers of critical thinking are flawed in major ways is not the same thing as looking down on you."

You just did exactly the opposite of what you said here.

"We all have our strengths and weaknesses. there is absolutely nothing in what I have said that tells you or anyone else how to live."

Sure you did. You're advocating that the government should have a say in how much "carbon" we can produce. You want big government to come in and take over every aspect of our lives, because you can't do it yourself.

OrangeNeckInNY said...

"I wasn't the one telling you to put a plastic bag over your head."

I said, "would you?," and "perhaps" which tells you that they are merely suggestions. If I was telling you to put a plastic bag over your head, I would have used other choice words.

"I could not help noticing that you did not address most of what I said in my last post. We both know why that is,don't we?"

"On the basis of what I have told you, I would say I am the model of the conservative self-made man. The guy you might say is the salt of the earth, The real American."

Here, in one fell swoop, you're implying no one else is or could be?

"My hunch is that your perfect man is some Rambo Hollywood fiction that doesn't actually exist."

Actually, my perfect American is Ronald Reagan.

"If I were a bigot, I could say"You live in New York, well that explains everything",But I won't because I live in the real world,the world where if I make a mistake, nobody is going to bail out my ass."

Here you go, looking down on people who live in NY. I can see that you're implying that I'm on the government dole because I live in NY and you're assuming I can't bail myself out if I make a mistake. No condescension there.

"Now see if you can curb your irrational anger, envy, and potty mouth long enough to think about why you are doing what you are doing. Just trying to help."

I assure you that I am neither angry nor envious of you. I'm doing what I'm doing because I'm disagreeing with you on big government regulation of something that occurs naturally. What's next, the government telling people to stop getting fat because they're using more than their fair share of gravity?

"As an aside, in 1969 I had a vasectomy,which of course means I didn't have children after that, or grandchildren for that matter. Each of them, to use your fecetious analogy is not breathing out co2.If you think it hasn't been a sacrifice never to know the joys of having a daughter or grandchildren then I don't believe you are serious and not to put too fine a point on it Mr.OrangeNeck inNY, fuck you."

I don't have any children or grandchildren either, and I never got a vasectomy, because I choose how I live. You don't tell me how I should live and neither does the government. Sorry to say (not really) that you can't have any children, but I still can. It's a relief too, what with that potty mouth of yours.

Newbius said...

Jimmy,

In your original comment, you say it is time for coercive government to regulate CO2. Yet, is subsequent posts you state that government has gotten too big and aggrandized too much power unto itself.

In this instance, it has to be one or the other. It cannot be both. A government that has the ability to regulate air is a government that is too big.

For your efforts at living a conservative (as in conservationist) lifestyle, I again applaud you. You have chosen a path in your home, commute and career location that places you in a position where you can live your life in that manner. Good for you. Having lived the 12 volt life (on sailboats), I truly understand some of those sacrifices.

I do not think that the Founders envisioned our Federal Leviathan as currently constructed. A National government that has accrued power over every aspect of our lives and rendered us serfs in our own land. I think they were convinced that a free people would wish to remain free and not allow the usurpations which have occurred. I think the only Founder who did "get it" was Jefferson when he made his "Tree of Liberty" comment.

As for AGW...so far the evidence of a warming trend (such as it is, and I will grant you that it exists) shows more correlation to sunspot activity than to CO2. In fact, CO2 appears to be a "lagging indicator", not a "leading indicator", and it seems like those who are pushing AGW the hardest have the most to gain from it financially.

Call me a cynic, but I think the jury is out on this one and I am not willing to sacrifice my life, sovereignty, or Liberty on the altar of AGW. I will be one of those who will have to be coerced to comply at the point of a gun. And I have my own to resist with.

Cheers,

Newbius

theotherjimmyolson said...

Newbius, I truly understand where you are coming from. Living as I do In rural mid-coast Maine,I am surrounded by people of similar mind,to whom I frequently talk. I don't talk down to them. I admire them. They are the reason why I chose to live here.I will be long gone before the jury comes in on AGW and it should go without saying that I hope I am wrong.